After a slight delay, it's finally time to crown a 5th anniversary champion. These two RPG heavyweights are some of the genre's most renowned titles of all time, so this is going to be a knockdown, drag out slugfest. As it stands, they defeated some stiff competition to get here, and both titles are absolutely deserving. Both scored 9.75s and were strongly considered for 10s. Hey, one or both might get bumped up after this battle. I'm sure many people already consider them 10s, which is going to make said battle tough to decide. This isn't like the comparison I did with Chained Echoes and Sea of Stars, with all due respect to those two titles the ones we are comparing today have had time to marinate. The book on them is written, as written as the book on a game can be, and history has already decided them to be great. Of course, they are both RPGs, so we will be using the same categories as our last battle. Those are:
Round 1: Graphics
Round 2: Sound
Round 3: Story
Round 4: Characters
Round 5: Combat
Round 6: Leveling and Progression Systems
Round 7: Exploration and Overworld Design
Round 8: Dungeon Design and Mechanics
Round 9: Sidequests and Postgame Content
Round 10: Effective Use of Mechanics
Remember, the winner of each round gets 10 points with the loser receiving nine or less. In the event of a tie...well, I guess we will figure it out when we get there. With two games of this quality, it may very well happen here. First, let's meet the principals:
In the Red Corner
Release Date: Oct. 12 2004
Origin: Irvine, CA by way of Nishi-Shinagawa, Tokyo, Japan
Developer: Atlus
Publisher: Atlas USA
Platform: PlayStation 2
and in the Blue Corner
Release Date: Sept. 29 1999
Origin: Ginza, Chuo, Tokyo, Japan
Developer: Konami
Publisher: Konami
Platform: PlayStation 2
Without further ado, let's ring the bell and get this fight started.
Round 1 - Graphics
For the first time, we are going to have to find a way to compare apples to oranges.
Obviously, if we were going straight up, this category would go to Nocturne. But that doesn't tell the whole story. Remember, Nocturne came out five years later on superior hardware, so of course its graphics are going to look "better." So, as I always do when comparing old games, I have to look at them relative to their contemporaries. While it may not look as good in a vacuum, Suikoden II is one of the best looking games of its generation. It has some of the most detailed, interesting, expressive 2D sprites I've ever seen and it uses every ounce of the PSX's power to produce an absolutely beautiful game. It's so well animated and detailed, especially in battle when your entire party attacks at once. The towns and overworld locations are awesome too. I really can't say enough about how amazing Suikoden II's graphics are compared to other sprite-based games.
Nocturne may have more advanced 3D models, but it kind of just looks okay by the standards of the time. They weren't bad by any means, just not anything exceptional for a mid-6th gen game. There are some great elements, the demons and other enemies especially look cool, but it just wasn't as clean or well produced as its bigger budget contemporaries. That doesn't mean it's over for Nocturne though, because we also have to talk about graphical style. And that is where this game absolutely shines. The red heavy color palette, the weird, overly symmetrical lines everywhere, the demonic imagery, Nocturne has a style all its own. SII may have been a step ahead of its contemporaries technically and it certainly has a cool art style, but it still kind of has that "standard medieval RPG" look that was extremely prevalent in the genre.
So, what's going to win out? The game with top-end 5th gen graphics and an okay art style? Or the okay looking 6th gen game with an amazing art style? Honestly, it's kind of a tie. But I don't do ties. So I have to go down to my criteria. I think I've made it pretty clear that my reviews are about 80% my opinion/personal preference of what I enjoyed more and 20% what game I think is objectively better. And in a tie, that 20% has to be the tiebreaker. So that is going to push this round in favor of SII. As much as I love the art style in Nocturne, I think Suikoden II is objectively better looking relative to its contemporaries, so it wins here.
Score after 1 - SII 10 - SMT:N 9
Round 2 - Sound
As great as these games are, I don't think either of them have all time great soundtracks. That's not to say they are bad, I just wouldn't put them among the best of the best. Both are still really good to great and they are very, very different from each other.
Suikoden II has a more typical RPG soundtrack that perfectly fits its vibe. It has a really good battle theme, as well as some great town and overworld themes. Some of the tracks are repeated a little too often, but at least they are solid. The soundtrack does a good job of conveying emotion and setting a mood, whether its serious, sad, hopeful or anything in between. I will say that outside the boss and regular battle theme, no individual track really stands out. However, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts and it's a really good soundtrack for a great game.
Nocturne's soundtrack is, for better or worse, a lot different than SII and other more typical RPGs. It's far more ambient and brooding, more focused on creating an atmosphere than anything else. It fits perfectly with the dark and dreary graphics, the depressing vortex world and the generally unsettling nature of the game. Nocturne certainly has its share of good music. I like that there are different battle themes, I especially like the one with guest vocals from the "I'm annoying, huh?" guy from Final Fantasy 10 (that's funny to me and like two other people). It's close, but I think I am going to have to go with Nocturne here. Both have great, if short of all time classic, soundtracks. But Nocturne's does such a great job of creating atmosphere and said atmosphere is critical to the same presentation. It wins here.
Score after 2 - SII 19 - SMT:N 19
Round 3 - Story
Another category, another way in which these two great games vary greatly.
A brief synopsis would barely scratch the surface what's happening with Nocturne. Hell, I feel like the full review of the game barely scratched the surface of all the themes covered in Nocturne. The story starts with our unnamed protagonist and his friends on their way to the hospital to visit their ailing teacher Takao. They arrive to find the building surprisingly empty, so the main character and friends Chiaki and Isamu set off to find their teacher. The plot begins in earnest when you reach the hospitals roof and learn the true nature of why you were called there: an event called the conception is going to destroy the world and kill anyone not within the hospital. After the event occurs, your character finds himself transformed into the demi-fiend, a half demon with horns and glowing tattoos. Your friends have survived, as has your teacher, but they are very different as well. You must also contend with Hikawa, a nefarious businessman while also working sometimes with and sometimes against a mysterious writer named Hijiri. The new Tokyo vortex world is bleak, depressing and filled with demons. You soon learn, from a mysterious young boy, that the world needs to be rebuilt with a new purpose, one of a variety of "reasons." It gets deep, complex and philosophical, almost a little too much so. It does get a bit pretentious at times, but it's an outstanding story that touches on things that aren't common topics in video games.
Suikoden II's story is far more grounded, telling a story about the horrors of war and its impact on everyone it touches. The story starts with the protagonist, also unnamed, and his friend Jowy camped with their fellow soldiers in the Highland Youth Brigade. The duo, bored out of their minds, decide to go take a walk. That decision proves to be lifesaving, as their camp is ambushed and their comrades killed. The perpetrators? The unit's own captain Rowd, under the command of Highland's Prince, Luca Blight. The main character and Jowy are separated as they flee, though they do eventually reconnect, where they learn the attack was a false flag to undermine Highland's forthcoming peace treaty with the neighboring City State of Jowston. The duo decides to fight against Luca Blight in an effort to bring peace to the continent. But as the game progresses, the duo realizes they have very different ideas on how to do that. This sets in motion a series of events that will lead to a fierce war. And that's the beauty of the story here. It does such a great job of showing how war pits brother against brother, tears apart families and leaves its mark on everyone it touches.
Both stories are great, but I am going to have to give the edge to Nocturne. SII does a great job demonstrating the horrors of war. But due to a twist at the midway point, the back half of the game kind of loses its sense of urgency. Mind you that twist was incredible, but it really kills a lot of the story's momentum. Nocturne's story is a little bit pretentious at times, but it's unique and covers topics that most video games won't go near. SII's story does have a bit more of the "standard medieval RPG" vibe, even if it does that kind of story better than just about any of its contemporaries. Nocturne's story is just as strong, but it's unique and different, so it wins here.
Score after 3 - SMT:N 29 - SII 28
Round 4 - Characters
Both Nocturne and Suikoden II have silent protagonists that essentially serve as avatars for the player, so that's a wash. It's also where the similarities between these two casts end.
Nocturne has a small, tight cast that pretty much consists of the folks you meet within the first two hours of the game. Some demons have unique personalities and other characters, like the leader of the manakins, are introduced, but most have relatively small roles or serve almost as plot devices to move the story forward. Chiaki, Isamu, Hikawa, Hijiri and Takao are really the focus here, with the mysterious little boy/old man also having a major impact on the plot. They are pretty interesting characters, but a lot of their motivations seem kind of random and are not particularly well explained. There is a major twist involving the little boy that I absolutely saw coming a mile away. Still, I think it's a good, tight cast that has a lot to offer.
On the opposite side of the spectrum, we have Suikoden II and its 108, yes, 108, recruitable characters. With that many characters, there's bound to be some lack of character development. Otherwise , the game would be 400 hours long. However, all of the characters are at the very least cool looking and well designed and its shocking how many of these guys and gals are useful in battle. They also choose a select few characters to try and focus the story on, dedicating most of the development to the more central party members. Characters like Flik, Viktor and, especially, Nanami are well designed and developed and can more than carry the heavy burdens placed on them. The NPCs are also strong, with Pilika in particular serving as a great representation of innocence lost to war. But the thing that really pushes Suikoden II over the edge is its primary villain, Luca Blight. This guy is one of the most purely evil villains I have ever encountered in a video game, he's straight up despicable. I always feel like having a strong antagonist helps give a story more weight, and this guy might be as strong as they come. Suikoden II wins this one.
Score after 4 SII 38 - SMT:N 38
Round 5 - Combat
Both games have strong combat, with systems that expand well on the typical turn-based combat of old school RPGs.
Suikoden II sees you bring six characters into battle, with three in the front row and three in the back. Characters are divided into short, medium and long range, each with different attributes. Short range characters can only attack from the front row but tend to be tankier. Long range characters can attack from the back but are typically weaker. Medium range characters are jacks of all trades that can swing from anywhere but aren't quite as strong as the more specialized party members. If a character in the front row dies, the one behind them moves up, so party construction is very important. Characters can also equip runes to perform magic or use skills, with some characters having more equip slots than others. Some combinations of characters have double team moves, though these are pretty much locked to specific sets of characters and rarely felt worth building around. Combat cuts a quick pace, as all of your characters will perform their actions at once and the attack animations are quick and snappy. It's good, solid, turn based combat at its best.
Nocturne sees you bring four characters into battle, with the Demi-fiend flanked by up to three demons. These demons can be switched out, you can have up to eight with you at a time. At the beginning of each round, each character receives a press turn icon, which signifies an action. Get a critical hit or exploit an enemy weakness and you earn an extra half an icon. If you have a character that doesn't have anything relevant to do, they can defend to bank a half icon. But this cuts both ways. Miss an attack or attack with an enemy's resistance and you will lose both yours and an additional icon. Hit an enemy with something they absorb and you will lose a whole turn. Of course, your enemies are bound by this system as well. So much of the game is about making sure you have the right matchups and resistances while correctly evaluating enemy attack patterns. It sounds so simple in theory, but it's very complex in practice and it leads to some tense and incredible moments, though it also can cause frustration. You can also negotiate with enemies, some will run away or give you and item, while others will join your cause.
It's close, but I have to go with Nocturne here. You can't go wrong with either game's combat, but I think Nocturne just offered more and led to more interesting moments. I have to give Suikoden II credit for pacing here, but it just didn't have as much to differentiate itself and some of its more unique features felt underwhelming. Nocturne wins round 5.
Score after 5 SMT:N 48 - SII 47
Halfway through the fight and it's shaping up to be the heavyweight battle I expected. It's anyone's game as the fighters come out for round 6.
Round 6 - Leveling and Progression Systems
This round is a strange case for Nocturne. Because now we have to talk about demon fusions, which are a major part of the game. But is it a leveling system or is it a sidequest? Honestly, it's a little bit of both. However, it is such an important part of how your party gains levels as you progress through the game that I feel like it needs to be included, and heavily factored in, here. The Demi-fiend is your only full time party member and he levels up like a more traditional RPG character. You fight battles, he gains experience. He can ingest one of 24 Magatama, which will alter how his stats will change and what skills he will learn, so there is at least some level of customization here. But the demons can't ingest Magatama at all. They gain levels as normal, but their stat increases and learned skills will eventually plateau. So how do you fix that? You fuse them together. I won't even begin to get into the complexities of the fusion process, as its impacted by everything from demon type to the current phase of the moon. But that's kind of what is great about the system. The game will tell you exactly what demon you are going to receive before you perform the fusion, so there's no obnoxious guesswork. Fusion is pretty much required to beat the game, but you can go as deep as you want. Want to research the ideal build and create the perfect demon? Go right ahead. Don't want to spend too much time fusing and just want something, anything that's stronger than what you currently have? That works too. It's an awesome system that really helps elevate the game.
Suikoden II's leveling system is much more traditional. You gain skills and stats as you level up through battles, just like you would with any other JRPG. At least they have the courtesy to have all your characters gain some experience, leveling 100 something party members would have been a nightmare. The weapon system is worth noting here, as each character has their own weapon that needs to be leveled by a blacksmith. Unlike Chained Echoes, where you were switching weapons every town, each character will have the same weapon for the entire game, so the system works here. Still, it isn't enough to push it past Nocturne. Look, there's a reason the so many RPGs use the system that's in Suikoden II...because it works. I kind of think of it as the baseline, if you iterate on the system and it makes things worse, that's a problem. But if you iterate on the system and make it better, it's going to score better. That's exactly what Nocturne did.
Score after 6 SMT:N 58 - SII 56
Round 7 - Exploration and Overworld Design
Suikoden II has a traditional world map and it's one of the best examples I've ever seen. It's fun to look at, with good graphics and lots of interesting design elements. It's well laid out, with plenty of places to explore without pushing your character too far off their intended path. It has a large variety of locations that are well spread out, moving between locations feels like an adventure and not an arduous slog. For most of the game, you will be based out of your castle, which is nice and centrally located. The developers did a great job with this, they recognized how much of the game's events would stem from here and planned accordingly. Hell, they even made its central location a plot point. All of the dungeon adjacent areas are fun to explore, with a variety of twists and turns. The towns are all well designed and unique. SII is a blast to explore and the world is incredibly fun to navigate.
Nocturne does have a world map, but it almost looks closer to a menu screen. Your character is represented by a marker instead of their model and there really isn't much to look at. The vortex world is huge, almost too much so, and you will frequently find yourself running to opposite corners of the map. That's a problem here, because it takes a long time as your character moves very slow. The lack of detail will occasionally lead to you getting stuck. There are random encounters, but they seem to be the same enemies no matter where you are, making them a massiv nuisance in the endgame. It is saved a little bit by its dungeon adjacent areas, which are typically pretty well done. The towns, of you can call them that, are all really cool. However, I should note that unlike in most RPGs, you can be attacked in most towns here. It's part of the reason Nocturne is so challenging, there are few screens in the game where you can't get into a random encounter. I didn't mind because I kind of had an idea of what I was getting in to with this game, but it might throw off some people. Either way, Suikoden II wins this round.
Score after 7 SMT:N 67 - SII 66
Round 8 - Dungeon Desing and Mechanics
It's kind of tough to talk about the dungeons in Suikoden II, because there really aren't that many traditional dungeons. I will say the few that are there are pretty solid, I like the castle liberation and the Cave of Wind. But even the better dungeons are fairly basic and straightforward and usually don't have any unique or special mechanics. At least they aren't poorly designed or repetitive, but most fail to really stand out. Part of this almost feels like its by design, as Suikoden II's pacing is very different than most RPGs which feels very intentional. It's one of the biggest positives of the game, so I really can't ding it too hard for the relatively sparse dungeons. However, I will say the final dungeon is a pretty major disappointment.
Nocturne, on the other hand, lives and dies by its dungeons. They range from moderately hard to very hard and almost all of them are huge, labrynthian tests of endurance. Fortunately, they are so well designed that I can safely say I mean that in a good way. These places are all challenging but fair and they will test every ounce of your RPG skill. They offer a level of tension that a lot of titles in the genre fail to capture. You really feel like you've accomplished something when you emerge with half your party dead, no MP left and your inventory devoid of items. There are a good combination of just straight up "find your way out dungeons" and dungeons with unique mechanics, like the mirror worlds in Kabukicho Prison. Much of the sidequests also focus on dungeon exploration, though we will discuss those in a minute. If I had one complaint, it would be that some of these places rely a little too much on teleporter puzzles. But that's kind of a minor gripe. Some of the dungeons are oppressively difficult, I am telling you right now that the next time I play through this I am absolutely using a walkthrough to get through the Obelisk. But that kind of fits with the atmosphere of the game. The final dungeon is also a great finale, it's not the best final dungeon ever but it's still a strong conclusion. Nocturne takes this round.
Score after 8
SMT:N 77 - SII 75
Wow, this is coming down to the wire. But no one is sucking wind or slowing down here, these two elite warriors are still swinging for the fences. Nocturne is ahead on the scorecard, but will it put the fight away in the next round? Or will Suikoden II stage a comeback? Let's find out.
Round 9 - Sidequests and Postgame Content
Nocturne doesn't have a huge amount of additional content, but what is there is very extensive and deep. First though, I will say since I factored in the demon fusions so heavily in round 6, it's not going to be a major factor here. There are a few small diversions, but the primary side content comes from the two optional dungeons, the Bando Shrine and the Labyrinth of Amala. The shrine is an okay, if uninspired optional dungeon, it's nice that it's there but there isn't really a whole lot to it. So that means the focus here is on the Labyrinth of Amala, which is a really great optional dungeon. It is split into five levels, called Kalpas, which are unlocked by finding items throughout the game. These are all brutal, it's a perfect sidequest for a game as challenging as Nocturne. This is another thing I'm not sure I'd ever do again without a guide. Completing it is required for the optional boss, which some consider the true final boss. It's great side content, but that's really all there is.
Suikoden II is filled with sidequests, almost to the point it's hard to differentiate what's a sidequest from what's part of the main game. Of course, you aren't going to be recruiting all of those characters during the main story, so many of them come into your party via sidequests. With the exception of one or two, most of these are fairly reasonable to figure out and very rarely will you be asked to do something that doesn't make any sense. Probably the biggest sidequest is the castle building, at one point you will take over a castle to use as your base of operations. While part of its development is tied to the main story, many of its residents are recruited in down time and almost all of them provide some use. There are tons of mini-games here, which can be a blessing and a curse in games. With SII, it's definitely more of the former for two reasons. First, you don't NEED to particiapte in these mini games, but they all have something useful tied to them. Second, they are actually fun. You can play CeeLo, who doesn't love that? Suikoden II is filled with fun yet interesting sidequests, all of which provide a good balance of good rewards without being essential to beating the game. There is some variety in them too. I am going to be honest here, I am absolutely never going to do the Clive sidequest on any of my playthroughs, it essentially involves speed running the game and I don't understand the appeal of speed running an RPG. But it's awesome that the quest is there for people who do like that stuff. And that's just the sidequests. There is some postgame content as well, SII has multiple endings with some of them featuring some gameplay that takes place after the "main" ending. I have always liked stuff like this, and I especially like when it's done as well as it is here.
At the end of the day, quality will always beat quantity. Nocturne definitely has quality. But Suikoden II has quality and quantity. It may have some of the best side content of any JRPG ever, so it's going to win here.
Score after 9
SMT:N 86 - SII 85
Round 10 - Effective Use of Mechanics
It all comes down to this. And it's going to be a close call because neither of these games have any egregious or game breaking mechanical flaws.
Nocturne's combat mechanics are just about flawless and they go pretty deep. This isn't the kind of RPG where you can just attack, you need to understand damage types, resistances, enemy patterns and demon strengths and weaknesses. The press turn system is just about flawlessly executed and I think its a great take on traditional RPG combat. Demon negotation is okay, it isn't particularly amazing but it is well done and implimented. If there was one mechanic I had an issue with it would be the fact that you get a game over if the Demi-fiend dies. The dungeons all have unique mechanics and I don't think I had any issues with any of them, which is good. Some were hard as all hell and the solutions weren't always clear, but they were mechanically well designed. The game can be broken, but it requires work, mostly with the demon fusion system. And that's not easy to do, because the fusion system is insanely deep and complex. I like how all of the different mechanics play off each other and even things that would normally annoy me just seem to work here. Tying fusions to the phases of the moon is actually kind of cool. The whole Kagutsuchi system is cool, I like how it influences everything you do just a little bit without being overly oppressive. I like that there are multiple endings based on all of the available reasons, although I kind of wish there was more to it than just a choice you make towards the end of the game.
Suikoden II's combat mechanics are a little simpler, but they are also incredibly well done. The front and back rows and character roles make party construction and preparation incredibly important, which I like. One of the best things about Suikoden II is how all of your characters act at the same time, it makes battles feel chaotic and fun while also speeding up the pace of the game. This could have been a mess, but it's really well implemented here. Castle development and character recruiting are well done, as are the additional battle types. The biggest issue with the duel battles is that there aren't enough of them, which isn't great design but a good sign for mechanics. The dungeon mechanics aren't super deep, but they work well and the sheer amount of characters makes you feel like exploring everything. Unfortunately for Suikoden II, it has one mechanic that, while it tried, just never felt like it worked. As you might expect, managing the equipment across 80-something combat useable characters can be challenging. Honestly, I think it's a little too overwhelming. I really think they should have done armor like weapons, where each characters has one piece they stick with all game and it can be upgraded. But then you would still have to move the runes around. I have to give the developers credit, they at least tried to mitigate this. You do have a character in your castle that can store and bulk manage equipment. But even there it's a bear.
Is that one issue really a huge problem? No. But it is a problem. And it's a problem that I think is going to push this round to Nocturne. It's a nitpick, but we aren't talking about any old games here. When you are talking about titles of this quality, the littlest things can tip the scales. And it's going to do just that here.
Final Score Shin Megami Tensei:Nocturne 96
Suikoden II 94
It was a close one, but for me, Nocturne just barely scratches it out. Just about every single one of these rounds were close, like, really close, for me. They split the critical categories (characters and story), they split the presentation categories (graphics and sound). The only rounds that weren't close were the exploration and overworld round and dungeons round and even then, neither were close to 10-8 territory. Honestly, I hate to even have to make this call and I absolutely recommend these games to any RPG fan. Suikoden II is a little more accessible, Nocturne is a little tougher, but both are all time classics and must plays.
Comments
Post a Comment